Episode 226. The Power of No: Menstrual Cycle Awareness and Boundaries (Alexandra & Sjanie)

Sophie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Menstruality Podcast, where we share inspiring conversations about the power of menstrual cycle awareness and conscious menopause. This podcast is brought to you by Red School, where we are training the Menstruality leaders of the future. I'm your host, Sophie Jane Hardy, and I'll be joined often by red school's founders, Alexandra and Shawnee, as well as an inspiring group of pioneers, activists, change makers and creatives to explore how you can unashamedly claim the power of the menstrual cycle to activate your unique form of leadership for yourself,

Sjanie: your community, and the world.

Sophie: Hey, thank you so much for tuning in today. So one of the most beautiful and practical gifts of menstrual cycle awareness is how it can awaken a newfound capacity to know and claim [00:01:00] our boundaries. As we track our shifting emotions and mental state and energy levels throughout the cycle month, we get to know our unique strengths and our limits.

We become more able to hear our yeses, and importantly our nos. And this helps to build confidence in ourselves, in our nature, so that when we become aware of a boundary that's been crossed, we are more able to find a skillful way to use the power of no. And today on the podcast with Alexandra and Shawni, we are exploring the power of menstrual cycle awareness for setting boundaries, especially when you're highly sensitive in the premenstrual phase of your cycle and in the years running up to and during menopause.

And we look at how this power of no is potentially life changing and even

Sjanie: world changing.[00:02:00]

Sophie: Okay, let's talk about boundaries. I'm excited about this one. The power of no, the power of no has been big in my life. Maybe we'll share our stories throughout this, but let's start with our cycle. Check-in through the lens of boundaries.

Sjanie: Alright. Day 13, I'm very much in my inner summer. And I'm feeling good, like in my body, good.

My senses feel very alive. And I was thinking this morning, I like to play little games with myself. And the game I played this morning was, if you were an animal today, what animal would you be? And immediately I was like a horse. It's just something. So I don't know the physical power and beauty of a horse.

I was like, oh yeah. And then I was like, whoa. Interesting. I can also feel the [00:03:00] part of me that can be quite unconscious with this energy in a way, the shadow side of this inner, a summer place, you know, in terms of the powers that I'm in touch with, I feel really in the flow. Time is passing. I've got a lot of energy, I've got a lot of capacity.

I feel very in my body. But I can also catch just sort of out of the corner of my eye how this could slip into a sort of obsessive possessed energy, but like a racehorse with blinkers on where I could just lose myself down a particular rabbit hole. And actually that kind of obsessive energy that I can sometimes tap into the, in the summer is great when there's a creative project or something very worthy of that kind of focus and deep flow.

But I was noticing myself falling down [00:04:00] into things that are not generative or creative and getting a little bit kind of possessed and obsessed. So in terms of boundaries today, it's to do with creating mental boundaries about around where I put my attention. Yeah, I have to be very. Deliberate and choiceful around what I put my attention on because there's so much energy in my system, the moment I put my attention on it's bullseye and I'm away.

Um, so yes, I'm, I'm needing to practice boundaries around my own thoughts. Where my attention is, yeah. And what I, what I let my energy go towards and go into.

Sophie: Right. Because where, wherever it goes, it's like a, that wild horse just gallops that way. Wow.

Sjanie: Yeah, exactly. It was a putting a lot of power behind it.

So,

Sophie: mm, I, I want to check in through the lens of boundaries, but I also like [00:05:00] the animal game as well. I feel like a bird. 'cause my mind is moving fast. I'm on day six and I'm also coming out of a cold. So I've been like down with low energy from my bleed and low energy from this cold. And now I'm like, I'm back.

Life is good again. But I feel like a flock of birds because my energy and thoughts are very dispersed at this time in the cycle. But it does feel a bit more like, you know, like a murmuration of starlings. Ooh,

Sjanie: yeah.

Sophie: So there's like, so, you know, sometimes hundreds of them, but they, but they are all moving, they're all kind of responding and moving with each other.

So not often does this happen in my life, but I feel quite, you know, all moving in, in the same direction. But it's a good feeling. Um, and when I think of boundaries, my mind immediately goes to my relationship with my son rt, who's five now, and how difficult I find it to help to hold the boundaries that he needs me to hold, to be like the grownup adult [00:06:00] person that decides what is okay and what isn't.

Okay. Because I see a lot of gray areas in everything. It's just part of my nature. So this morning I was very good at playing his new favorite game, which is we just invent city names for each other and just bat them back and forth. But when it was like, it is time to go to school, you need your shoes on, we must brush your teeth.

I wasn't very good at that bit because I'm just feeling, yeah, so light and airy and playful. Um, but that is my boundaries quest for my life is like how to show up as the grown up in, in my relationship with my son. The, the boundaries were strong for me growing up, and I'm resisting that, but I'm like, no, no, the kid needs boundaries.

Come on. How about you, Alexandra?

Alexandra: Oh, you're making me laugh. Theme. So what spontaneously happened this morning was that it's day four of the main or thereabouts, and I suddenly had this feeling of, oh, I'm, I'm like a creature that's been brought out of hibernation too early.

Sjanie: [00:07:00] Ouch.

Alexandra: And I just thought, I just would like to go back into hibernation for a little while.

Please. Thank you very much.

Sophie: Yeah, because you, you've had a big, a big couple of weeks. 'cause with the Oracle event

Alexandra: Yes. We, we, we, we came back, um, and sort of had to get right into it instantly. Yes. And you know, I'm just, it's the dark moon and we've just come through and I felt very, um. Permeable and kind of lost to the world.

I don't mean lost to myself, but lost. Oh, that makes me teary saying that. But um, really, gosh, that's really got me that. But I wasn't, I wasn't lost to myself. I was very in myself. I was very raw and alone, and I wanted silence. And, and actually the truth is I do. That's what I want to stay with. That's the hibernation thing.[00:08:00]

Sophie: Yeah.

Alexandra: Um, yeah, I don't feel sturdy enough yet. And then I've got this very, um, you know, steady. Kind of focused. I know what my business is, you know, in the world that helps. It's really good just knowing you know what I'm made for. So, in terms of boundaries, today, mine are very focused around physical boundaries.

Just really feeling the limits of my physical capacity to do things and what I have to do to stay within my, uh, physical boundaries, my energy boundaries, my nervous system boundaries, my blood sugar level boundaries. Just really basic, really in my body boundaries. Yeah.

Sophie: I used the word basic, but that sounded such like such a powerful, comprehensive list of someone who's lived a life of menstrual cycle awareness and [00:09:00] knows herself and knows what she needs.

That's what I was hearing from what you were saying. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and that's our topic for today really, is how menstrual cycle awareness can help us with this big lifetime work of boundaries and how to say no when it's a no. Rather than overriding ourselves and just saying yes to everybody, we thought we could kick this conversation off with a story from someone in our community.

Rebecca. So she says boundaries alongside wonderful menstrual cycle awareness has been the most helpful and also the most difficult thing that is supporting me on my healing journey from a mega burnout. While I'm definitely saying no more to others and yes, more to myself. It's so hard, but also feels so bloody good when I have created space for just me to rest and do whatever I want to do, however I want to do it.

Oh, it feels good. And then she says, the thing that I [00:10:00] struggle with the most is a feeling that I'm asking too much. My needs are too great. And then with that comes a feeling that I'm weak or a failure, that I need to ask for this rather than getting upset or feeling victimized, which can so often be my way of responding.

I really want to own my beautiful needs, to feel empowered to say no, and get to a place where I feel totally respected, wow, for expressing what I need and want rather than that at the moment, feeling more of a burden.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Sophie: I'm so grateful to her for sharing this. 'cause I can imagine so many people listening and myself included, relate to those feelings of like feeling like I'm asking too much.

My needs are too great that I'm a failure in. So in some way because I need to put a boundary in place. Yeah. Hmm.

Sjanie: Yeah. It's, um, yeah, so incredibly relatable. And actually Alexandra and I were talking about this this morning because, you know, [00:11:00] setting boundaries is not a one time thing, you know, and it's not something in a way that I think we ever master.

It really is, um, a practice. It's an ongoing learning edge because our needs are always changing and we're in a way, deepening into our ability to claim ourselves, which is. Really, it's li life lifelong.

Alexandra: Oh God, yeah.

Sjanie: It's really, it's lifelong. So I, I think it's really helpful to think about boundary setting as a practice rather than a thing you do.

You know, as a, as an experiment, ongoing learning experiment, like a learning lab. Because every time you play out that experiment, you come up against all those kinds of feelings that Rebecca described, which are judgements of ourselves. So that's really helpful to know that this [00:12:00] process of boundary setting, in a way activates our inner critic.

And I mean, that's the first thing you come up against is feeling, uh, bad about yourself and all the judgements that you imagine others are making on you and that you are making on yourself. God, it's a lot. To hold. No wonder we shy away from boundaries. 'cause the moment we draw that line ing, we've gotta deal with the consequence of that.

And the inner consequence is in a way, our first, you know, our first encounter where Rebecca says how, you know, she really wants to own her beautiful needs and to feel empowered to say no, and to get to a place where she feels respected. That's the work of meeting our inner critic, you know, on and on and on.

Every time we set a boundary,

Alexandra: it, it's really also, I mean, at the foundational level, it's the work of menstrual cycle awareness. Because there's two things happening [00:13:00] when you're practicing menstrual cycle awareness. Well, there's lots of things happening actually. Um, your, uh, so you. In menstrual cycle awareness, you're learning to, you are discovering what your nature is, where your, and where your vulnerable areas are.

And um, and you are learning this art of pacing your energies. And the very act of doing menstrual cycle awareness brings in this third thing of it actually organically starts to build a confidence in who you, who you are. This is actually really important in terms of being able to say no and dealing with the fallout of it, both within yourself, as Shani was describing with your inner critic, but also in disappointing people.

And I really, uh, understand Rebecca's [00:14:00] situation because that was me dealing with severe chronic exhaustion. And, um, I, you know, I was well known amongst my friends for letting them down, but I didn't know at that, this was years and years and years ago when I didn't have the understanding I have now. Um, and that awful, just knowing, feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to do something, but not, but simultaneously judging myself and not being able to, and not being able to explain to them what was going on.

I just looked like I was permanently letting them down. Um, but you know, nowadays, I mean, I still have the highly sensitive nature. I still have very singular needs and, and as I got older, the things I simply can't do at certain times. I have to pace everything. But now I know who I am and I'm, it's much easier now for me to assert my needs and to be able to, to, [00:15:00] but there's always a slight edge there, by the way, every time, because I don't want to, I want to fit in.

I want to go with the flow. It's so interesting. But menstrual cycle awareness is, it has, it, it, it weaves you into yourself and to the point where it, um, becomes in a way non-negotiable to your own spirit to compromise, to go against, uh, that boundary.

Sjanie: And Alexandra, and you talk there about your, uh, very natural longing to go with the flow and in a way to be limitless and all things to all people, and always able, and always up for it.

What that had me reflecting on was how the practice of cycle awareness, in a way is an antidote to that kind of thinking. Where more is always better.

Sophie: Yes.

Sjanie: And, uh, that whatever there is is never enough fomo. [00:16:00] Yeah, exactly, exactly. Menstrual cycle awareness is really an antidote to that because when you think about the menstrual cycle and the experience of moving through the menstrual month and the four distinct phases that you move through, the phases are distinct.

Each one is their own, uh, cosmos, their own inner season as we like to call them. And because of that, there is, um, you know, a beginning, a middle, and an end to each phase, and therefore a boundary, um, that we move through. Yeah. So the inner seasons, in a way, create limits is another way of saying it. So the whole experience of traveling through the menstrual month is a, on some level, it's a, it's a practice in pacing our energy and honoring the limits that we meet in each, in a season.[00:17:00]

Yeah. Each in a seasons got extraordinary powers, but also there are limits to those powers and those have to be honored in order to access the powers. So you're, you're in a real masterclass here with the cycle.

Sophie: It, it's like a, it's a containing thing to be Yes. The dimensional cycle. I remember looking back to my twenties especially, I just felt like I was just careering around the world, careening, careering, careening around the world with just boundless, you know?

And, and, and then I discovered menstrual cycle awareness in my late twenties and then really practiced it in my thirties, and now I'm really established in my forties and. I feel like I'm held all the time. I feel like I know where I'm at in the world. I know where I'm at in myself. So coming back to what you were saying, Alexandra, there are actually very few things I say yes to these days in terms of things I'm putting in my diary because I just know what my capacity is now.

Mm-hmm.

Sjanie: And

Sophie: then it stops me from letting people down because I'm just like, [00:18:00] I've got one evening over the next two weeks that I can do something. I'm gonna choose that thing to do. So I'll say yes to that person or that thing. And it's, yeah, it's that containing, um. Stops me from spilling over. And funnily enough, with all that careening around, I burnt out, you know?

Yeah. Because my energy was just spilling over the edges all the

Sjanie: time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 'cause the cycle in, in the seasons teach us there's a time and place for things. Uh, there's a time for activity, there's a time for rest, and, and it's in the honoring of that, uh, that we create this sustainability and this wellbeing.

So I love your story. So, because it's true, actually, the limits, in a way are what create our wellbeing and, um, you know, help to fortify us and bring us deeper into ourselves.

Sophie: Yeah. So in terms of leadership, like if we're wanting to mm-hmm. Step into leadership in our lives and, and the different roles that we have.

Being able to lean back on the containment of these [00:19:00] seasons, it means we can, we have control over our yeses and our nos.

Alexandra: Oh, it's so good. It's so exquisite. And I think that the thought that I'm holding right now as you're speaking is that when we practice this kind of deliberateness around our energy and what we're up for and not up for, we're giving permission to others.

I remember once this was in a, we were doing a training, a, a lie in person training, and someone was having, uh, um, you know, it was distressed. She was in a distressed space and it was just before lunch. Gins here has to take care of blood sugar levels. But I couldn't, I couldn't just force, I could say, sorry, darling, gotta have lunch.

You know? Um, I could, I, of course I couldn't do that. I had to be with her and I took some time with her and sort of, um, we got some sort of, you know, soothing and so on. And then I [00:20:00] said to her very firmly and directly, I said, um, I need to take care of myself right now because my blood sugar levels are, uh, struggling and um, so I'm actually going to have to step away and go and get my lunch.

And, and I said, can you hold this? And she looked up at me and she said, oh, wow, that's.

Because I, there was a line I knew I could not cross around my energy because I was running this, you know, uh, this whole thing. Well, I mean, it wasn't just me, but, you know, I was, uh, yeah. And, um, I couldn't afford to go down. No. So it was a really interesting moment of meeting her and supporting her, and then realizing I couldn't abandon myself.

And I said to her, I'm very happy to come back and spend a [00:21:00] little bit more time with you later on.

Sophie: It's such a beautiful example of a very loving boundary that creates clarity and also gives everyone responsibility and agency. Hmm.

Alexandra: What's interesting around boundaries is boundaries will out regardless of whether you are up for saying yes or no.

We have to remember that, and it'll come out as reactivity or it'll come out as illness in some way. So, boundaries, your, you know, boundaries will make themselves known, or that you have crossed your boundaries, uh, will just make themselves known. And what menstrual cycle awareness is doing is it's, as I said earlier, it's, it's, you're really learning about yourself, your own nature.

And this is really important for highly sensitive people who can't just, you know, willfully just push on because they just can't, it's impossible. Um, but so it really supports those kind of people, uh, to [00:22:00] recognize their nature and to know what their, you know, limits and so on are. Um. And it's, but it's also doing this really important thing of building this inner confidence in one's own nature.

This is, for me, the centerpiece of menstrual cycle awareness. It's building this confidence in who one is. Um, so that, um. When the boundaries start prickling, you know, and one hour, you know, you, you, you can be more congruent when you, because I discover boundaries by crossing them. You know, that's generally how I discover my boundaries.

I thought, oops. Yep, gone too far. But because of this kind of self-awareness of myself, um, I like to think. I'm better at articulating my no rather than reacting. I know sometimes, sometimes when I [00:23:00] have crossed a boundary, it comes out as rather a sharp, no, energetically. It's not even that I'm shouting No.

Or anything like that. It's just that it's suddenly people are almost shocked, you know? It's like suddenly boom, something shut down and I'm outta there. And, um. Because I, uh, hadn't been pacing that, that, so, you know, your boundaries are going to announce themselves through reactivity. And what menstrual cycle awareness is helping you to do is to come into greater gr well knowledge of yourself and therefore congruence with your nose.

So they are less reactive and more aligned. And an and a congruent no can be heard. And I think that's what happened when I spoke with that woman on the training was that it, I felt so congruent. I, it was just so clear and I felt this calmness in me. So yes, that's really important for me. It helps you to speak your [00:24:00] nose with greater and greater congruence.

Sophie: And especially as a highly sensitive person like you named, you know, it's something I know about myself and sometimes I've thought, well, I can't follow these big ambitions I have because I'm highly sensitive. I'm just not able to pull them off. What menstrual cycle awareness has done for me is help me understand where my boundaries are.

So that I can take care of myself really well. So that big things do become possible for me, even as my energy definitely runs out and I just need to stop. And the world needs more highly sensitive leaders. It needs more quiet leaders. You know, there's people who are like en engines, they're like train engines.

They can just go and go and go and go. I know my older brother's like that. He could, he's just going nonstop and, and we need those people too. But there's a lot of those people in leadership. We need the people who are more sensitive, empathic, introverted, intuitive in leadership roles. So [00:25:00] these boundaries, you know, it's world changing stuff we're talking about here.

Alexandra: It's vital actually, and is no less effective or potent. And in fact, if you'd rather fierce about this, it is can be even more IPO potent because there is a, because there is a sensitivity there because that go-go energy deadens and numbs. You know, there's a shadow side to every type of constitution, and so we need us all,

Speaker 4: Ruth.

Sjanie: Yeah. I'm really feeling it because just of kind of flipping this whole narrative around what power is and what power looks like and actually that regardless of our constitution and nature, we all hold enormous power. And that's what menstrual cycle awareness is doing, is bringing us into our particular kind of genius, our particular kind of [00:26:00] power, and helping us to have the potency and impact that we are built for, that we're designed for in exactly the way that we're meant to.

Um, yeah, I really, I really love that. And just along this, um, theme around how, you know, speaking about, uh, highly sensitive natures in a way that. If you're someone who is highly sensitive, you have less, um, bandwidth. Your boundaries in a way need to be, uh, tighter, firmer. Um, whereas maybe if you aren't such a highly sensitive person, you might have more leeway.

More buffer. Now what's really interesting is we all actually go through degrees of this, through the arc of our lives, because when we are younger and we have more energy, for example, when we're in the spring of our menstruating life in our twenties or in the summer of our menstruating life in our thirties, we all have, [00:27:00] uh, that added layer of, um, buffer.

And that's why in a way, the work of boundaries is not. Quite as pressing, uh, and as urgent, I want to say as it is when we come into the autumn and the winter of our menstruating life. So, you know, roughly in our forties and then in menopause and post menopause, um, life. So yes, that's, uh, something to really kind of track.

Of course, it's also true when we ex are experiencing illness like chronic fatigue. Then again, we're needing tie to boundaries. So through, um, challenging times in our life and through initiat times in our life, like I'm also thinking through the mares initiation, you know, becoming a mother. It's another moment where boundaries are much less flexible and kind of need a much, um, more much, we need much more care in order to hold ourselves through those times of, [00:28:00] uh, heightened vulnerability.

Sophie: When you dunno what the heck is going on or what's up or down.

Sjanie: Yeah.

Sophie: Setting boundaries really hard.

Sjanie: Yeah, exactly. And in a way that's when we're kind of needing them more, we need to come closer in to ourselves. So all these times of heightened sensitivity or increased liminality or vulnerability, um, either through our nature or through initiations or challenges we are going through, or because we're in this life phase or because we are in the season of the cycle, um, yeah.

Are all in a way invitations to come closer into ourselves. And that's what, you know, our boundaries are inviting us to do or the claiming of our boundaries are inviting us to do.

Sophie: I am gonna pause our conversation for a couple of minutes to share an invitation with you. You know, it takes [00:29:00] time to be able to hear how our cycle is nudging us towards the boundaries that will keep us healthy and well and on track with our lives, and it helps so much to have like-minded community around us.

If you are looking for companionship on this menstrual cycle awareness journey to stronger boundaries, Alexandra and Shani Warmly welcome you to Explore joining them for this year's Menstruality leadership program. Every year, an extraordinary circle of support forms itself made up of women and folks who are passionate about living from their cyclical intelligence.

There are still a few places left. And if you're feeling called, there's a seat with your name on it. You can find out all about the program at menstruality leadership.com and here's a story from Ruby May about her experience of the program, and then we'll get back to our conversation with Alexandra and Shawnee.

Speaker 5: I remember when I [00:30:00] received the invitation to apply for the menstruality leadership training and like the full body all cells tingling Yes. That I experienced. It was like so clear that this is something that I have to do and I remember so clearly. That that excitement was also about tuning into the place that the invitation came from, because I could sense that it came from such a deep and wise and embodied place, and that that was so refreshing in a world that just feels full of different courses and information and all these different things that you can do.

And I could just sense that, wow, this is something really different. And I'm afraid I will sound a bit like a menstrual missionary saying this, but I am a bit of a menstrual missionary, but uh, it has changed my life in such beautiful, subtle, yet deeply impactful ways. And [00:31:00] some of that is through the guidance of Shawnee and Alexandra who just embody this wisdom and facilitate in a way that is just such a pleasure.

Um, to, to experience. Um, but a lot of it is also from the sense of being held in a community, having peers around me on a similar journey and being held in a movement. No, because it feels like that these teachings and, and this, this work is very much an emergence through a movement and unfolding that is happening on our planet.

And, um, there's something very supportive about the sense of being held through that and something so exciting about taking the time to let things kind of percolate and integrate. And, you know, this is no like weekend workshop [00:32:00] or short term fix. It's like. Really, it's like a lifelong commitment now. It's like planting seeds that will then blossom, um, for years and years and years to come.

Um, but to then find that wave of creativity that then is like, yes, I'm ready to start sharing this with the world. And to just feel yourself as part of this movement and see the results and see how this work is not only touching women in such amazing ways in their self care in like what they're available for, where they wanna draw their boundaries, their ways that they show up in the world.

But I, I can see how it's really creating like a paradigm shift in the way that we relate. And so, as an activist. And I am so [00:33:00] grateful, uh, to feel like I get to be part of the puzzle and find my unique way to share this and am ever in gratitude, uh, for the red school, um, for being such a catalyst on the start of my journey.

Sophie: Okay. Speaking of particular seasons and boundaries, then, yeah. Yeah. At the time of the cycle when maybe most of us, not everyone, but maybe most of us, feel our boundaries, um, shout themselves more loudly, which is in the premenstrual phase of the cycle in, in a autumn, and we've got a really beautiful story from Rachel about her premenstrual boundary setting.

She says. Today, I'm on day 26, and I felt that I was more vulnerable and raw and ready to cry. Knowing that was where I was at helped me to tend to myself better Throughout the days, as [00:34:00] I got extremely triggered, I told someone to stop talking. I walked away from two situations. I took time to care for myself emotionally.

I cherished the hurting parts of myself. I was kind but firm with my inner critic. Well done, and I spoke up for myself. Holding a boundary was as much about what I gave myself within bounded space and time, emotionally and in outreaching to people as much as it was creating a boundary externally through what I said no to.

And it led to a softer no and moments of repair in a relationship where there never had been repair like that.

Alexandra: Wow. So I was just thinking about Rachel's, you know, had come into a deep congruence with herself through psycho awareness and, um, she had such a precise understanding of where she, uh. [00:35:00] Was in her si, you know, the nature of the place she was in in her cycle.

She's really learn how to pace and care for herself in this stage of the cycle. It was the level of self-awareness and holding she had that allowed her then to make these choices. And what I'm hearing in her words is a congruence with herself. So that when she spoke her no to, in a softer no to someone.

'cause there's the congruence at work. Some a, a magic started to happen with a relationship that was struggling and, you know, some repair happened. I, I find that rather wonderful actually just through honoring this kind of deep respect of where one's at and honoring that. And being boundaried and how that elicited a real shift with [00:36:00] someone.

Sjanie: Hmm.

Alexandra: That's what got me.

Sjanie: Yeah. Yeah. We're, we sometimes forget that, um, boundaries, um, are generative, they're actually creative. There's something around,

Alexandra: yeah.

Sjanie: Stating what we want and need that shifts the axis of our dynamic with someone or our relationship with someone and can be very, very generative. Um.

So in a way that's what I'm, I'm hearing the boundary illuminated something and kind of opened up the space between them for their relationship to evolve. And that is ultimately, actually what our boundaries are doing. They're supporting evolution both within us. So in the way I spoke about it earlier, um, every time we set a boundary, we're in our own little, in a personal [00:37:00] developmental process of learning to take our own side and take responsibility for ourselves.

So we are all evolving, we maturing, growing up in the process, but also every time we set a boundary with another, there's the, it's creating the possibility for our relationship to evolve, uh, and for both parties to take more responsibility and to, um, step up to something new together. So yes, it's very generative, a boundary,

Sophie: particularly when it comes through in that very skillful way that Rachel brought through there.

Because let's, let's be honest, that's fairly rare and very highly skilled.

Sjanie: Yeah, yeah, very, very true. Can, can I just say, Rachel is a graduate of the Menstruality Leadership Program and is on our Menstruality apprenticeship and is. Very, very deep into [00:38:00] practicing cycle awareness, which I think has a lot to do with it.

Alexandra: That's a real wonderful example of someone being very grown up.

Sophie: Yeah. Bringing a lot of wisdom to it. A lot of embodied lived wisdom. And she actually went on to say in her quote, I was deep in the dark arts, a lot of interception. So it feels important to tease that out 'cause there's a skill that she's bringing at one of the Menstruality leadership skills that you teach on the program that she's bringing to bear here.

'cause the dark arts is like your fun name for these 12 menstruality leadership skills that you teach. Hang on. 12 or 13? 12.

Alexandra: No, it's 12, but we play with the 13th one. It's really, it's 12 plus the 13th ferry.

Sophie: Okay.

Alexandra: And the 13th fairy is the critic.

Sophie: Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.

Alexandra: So we have 12 dark arts and a 13th fairy.

Sophie: I like that.

And, and this [00:39:00] interception, this skill is so vital for being able to set boundaries. We've kind of been talking about it throughout the conversation, but this capacity to feel what's going on inside ourselves and then make a decision from that place is vital to being able to set boundaries, isn't it?

Sjanie: Absolutely. Because, and this is what, um, menstrual cycle awareness is doing. Every time we do a cycle check-in and notice the place we're in, we're practicing inter interception. We are really feeling our interior state and noticing how we are so that we can track how our mood and energy and needs are shifting.

Yeah, so Rachel had knowledge both of where she was in her cycle, the pre menstruum, and a deep understanding of how this phase is feedback. You know, this is the place in the cycle where we really get feedback about, um, our own needs and the places and ways that we have given [00:40:00] ourselves to others or have crossed our boundaries.

That really comes into sharp focus and that knowledge in combination with this, uh, menstruality skill of really listening deeply to ourselves and staying connected to ourselves, um, yeah, is very, very core to being able to set the boundary congruently as she did.

Sophie: Rachel, amazing story. I feel like this brings us naturally to the autumn of the menstruating years that you were talking about earlier.

Shani, how in our forties in the quickening or you know, this time of that is sometimes called perimenopause. Ooh. How boundaries become ever more vital and sort of ready, readily expressible within us. Um, maybe much to the dismay of everyone around us. And there's a story from Lauren here that I'd love to share.[00:41:00]

I'm in my mid forties now. I've been practicing cycle awareness for about three years, and it's definitely taught me about boundaries. I'm way more adept at listening to the emotional messages of autumn and understanding them as boundary signals rather than irrational outbursts. Can we just say that again?

Okay.

Speaker 6: Yes, I'm

Sophie: way more adept at listening to the emotional messages of autumn and understanding them as boundary signals rather than irrational outbursts. Yes,

Alexandra: definitely. Yes. When one's feeling the reactivity rise up. Um, and um, and it is such a clear signal. That we have compromised ourselves in some ways.

And, um, so rather than judging ourselves for, uh, you know, you might want to apologize if you have sort of [00:42:00] just murdered somebody or

Sophie: it doesn't happen to me every month.

Alexandra: You've just taken someone out. Uh, you might want to go back and apologize, but you know, a way of dignifying. 'cause I know that being reactive can feel very undignified actually afterwards, while I can feel that. Yeah. But it is, you know, to sort of claim it as Wow, wow, that is such a clear signal.

And, um, I think what, of course, as you come into your forties, you've got more grit in your system now. So I think you've got way more capacity for being gritty with your boundaries and clearer about them. Um, and, but it's so important to when you feel that reactivity to see it in this way. And the more that you do that, I think the more you will be able to be, uh, [00:43:00] more direct and gritty rather than reactive.

When you are feeling, you know, you can feel the reactivity rising in you and, you know, if you are doing cycle awareness, you'll be able, you really, you know, you do have capacity. You'll, you'll feel that, um, sort of awareness in you and a kind of determination to sort of meet that charge and ride that charge, be present to that charge.

I mean, if that charge is coming out, you better be riding it rather than letting it ride you. Because yeah, you are gonna, you're not gonna be loved. Um, we do get more, um, difficult in our forties and, um, so we're not always loved. But if the more that you are riding that charge, the, uh, the more you will feel the sort of the dignity in yourself and, um, kind of the, [00:44:00] the depth that you are of grounding you're gonna have in yourself.

It's huge. Those, the years of your forties are really very big growing up. This, that it's all about preparation for menopause. Oh, because my god, at menopause, you hit the big no. The really big no. And if you haven't worked your nose in your forties, that big, no. Is, it's actually, I think it's too big. It's too much.

Yeah. It's huge that it can you, you, it's a huge power. It's a massive power and it's the power of powers you need to get through menopause. Um, but if you haven't sort of built somewhere withal in you to be able to take responsibility for the power of that, no, you are gifted menopause, then, um, it's not so great.

And I won't say [00:45:00] anymore about that.

Sophie: I'm thinking of how it's, how it's quite good for us to do weights in our forties. Yes. And how like every time you lift the weight No, no, no. Just use it as a, a no workout as well as a muscle workout. It's also making me think of, I mean, all the brilliant people who are rewriting the story of menopause, you know, from.

Boundary signals rather than irrational outburst. It makes me think of Melanie Sanders from the We Do Not Care Club.

It's just the way that they're rewriting the story of, actually, no, I'm not gonna do this anymore. And it's, that's just the way it is. Yes. So if, if anyone needs some, needs, some cheerleading and support, go and find Melanie Sanders on Instagram. Come and join the We Do Not Care Club for everyone in perimenopause and menopause.

Oh,

Alexandra: celebrating the No. So powerful. I mean, it is a power. It's an incredible [00:46:00] power. And if, and, um, in a way, what menstrual Cycle awareness is doing is really growing you into a maturity to handle that power. Because Shani spoke about the generative power of it. And I think we'll come to that in a moment with the next story actually around calling, which is, was a hugely, it's a wonderful story.

Um, it, so it's not only generative, but actually. It builds intimacy. And you heard that in, uh, Rachel's story. She, she the, for that repair to happen in that relationship, there must have been some close, greater closeness between them, greater vulnerability and, you know, the No, I think the no is a radical, radical power that can generate and also build Well, it builds realness, and realness leads to the potential for greater intimacy.

Sophie: Yeah.

Alexandra: But you've gotta know how to use it.

Sophie: Yeah. And it's not [00:47:00] easy. I'll just complete Lauren's story 'cause she shares, shares some beautiful pieces about how this is hard. She says, of course. Actually putting those boundaries into place is a lot harder than just acknowledging what they are. It's a constant exercising of the no muscle that is required.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Sophie: That's the takeaway from this podcast. Work Your No Muscles. Sometimes I get it right, often I don't. I find myself now in perimenopause and each month I seem to wait a day or two longer for my bleed. It's almost as if my cycle is saying to me, Hey, just a reminder, I'm not gonna be here much longer to remind you to be true to you.

Not many more of these physical reminders of the importance of your boundaries. So get to honoring them.

Alexandra: I love that. I just love that there's such, I mean, there's such intimacy in there, and of course, wonderful humor. God humor saves the day.

Sophie: Yes. Yes. Okay, moving on to the next story then that [00:48:00] you were speaking about Alexandra of.

How this power of no and boundaries can help us when we're living our calling, living our genius, following our purpose in life. Char, do you feel like sharing Rosie's Rose's story?

Sjanie: Yeah, I'd love to read it. When, when Rose shared her story, I was just, I was both inspired, but also just felt such a massive yes in my being.

I was like, wow. So Rose, who's also one of our, um, menstruality apprentices, she, this was some time back, she was working on a sailboat as a first mate, uh, in a training position where the training was given as reimbursement for her work, and it was really full-time in the fullest sense living aboard the boat.

She had a deck crew to manage. She had a skipper above her who owned the business and the boat and. It quickly [00:49:00] became clear that the skipper had expectations of her ability and of her character, and he wanted her to lead like him IE with overt strength, with commanding power, you know, taking charge. But rather than nurturing Rose and really kind of cultivating her confidence to do that, he would dismiss her and, uh, you know, intimate that she was a weakling and so on.

Sounds actually really whoof tough.

Alexandra: Sounds horrible.

Sjanie: So she writes, when we were sat sitting around the table eating lunch one day, and at this point things were really awfully bad and I'd become pretty physically unwell from the stress. It was like hitting rock button. I suddenly realized while I sat there, I could just leave.

So I said No, [00:50:00] and I left the job and then she went off, I love this and bought her own boat. Something she had wanted for a long time. This gorgeous, bright red boat. Okay. Bright red boat called Defier. I mean, how's that for a name? And that boat led to a film project which became much bigger than she expected.

She landed up touring it around, um, the UK and had international screenings. And in the film she's sailing defiance. And actually that led eventually to a changing career for her 'cause she realized she really needed to find her own way, her own genius. And in that she discovered red school and came and did the Menstruality leadership program.

And she writes about how that helped her to cultivate trust. In really all aspects of who [00:51:00] she is including, and especially her sensitivity and her belief in feminine leadership in a different way of leading and being in the world. And she says how the Menstruality leadership program also helped her to find direction in the next chapter of her life, which she's very much journeying in now.

Alexandra: I mean, that's really a story and a half, isn't it?

It's just wonderful how, what I particularly love is how that inner voice spoke. Actually that really got me and I, we've all got that in us. Actually. There, there is something in us that will ultimately not let us abandon ourselves. You know, that speaks so outcomes. Just thought I could just leave. [00:52:00] So the no was birthed from within her.

So potent.

Sjanie: Yeah.

Alexandra: It was like her deep guiding self, um, had, you know, knew about the sort of bigger plan of her life. If you like it, well power if you like, you know, spoke to her. Uh, even though she was unaware of all this work, um, she was, she was connected into something and she heard herself, her deep self talk and, and in following that impulse, she generated something.

Completely wonderful for herself. I mean, you know, a whole new exciting chapter opened up that has really, um, put her on this path of something of liberating her.

Sophie: Yeah.

Alexandra: Or even more I would want to say that Rose is not Liberated. Liberated, yeah.

Sophie: Defiance the [00:53:00] big red

Alexandra: flag. I mean, is that the coolest name?

Sophie: Yeah. I feel, I think there was more that Rose shared and I feel like I remember her saying that she, she was sort of tuned into a patterning that she had recognized for a long time in her life of, um, not having confidence in herself. And my experience of the. Um, premenstrual phase, especially of the cycle, um, is that it's that there are these nudges and they're often quiet, but very persistent of something's wrong.

This isn't right, this doesn't feel good. And I think what menstrual cycle awareness helps us to do is not only hear those nudges, but take them seriously.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Alexandra: I think that's such a good point, Sophie. I mean, I, I'm, I'm really curious now to know what phase of cycle rose was in when she suddenly heard that I, you know, I could just leave and said, no, because it's true.

You can, you can feel, or, you know, you can be trotting along and, you know, and [00:54:00] feeling and just sort of repressing things, but feeling sort of uneasy. Uneasy. And this is where the pre menstruum comes to save you because you become. More permeable and you can't censor. It's where your deep self can burst out.

And, you know, often in reactivity if we're not sort of connected, but that it's meaningful. Um, yeah. It's, it's the, the gloves are off.

Speaker 6: That was exactly the phrase was coming. My mind was

Sjanie: like, yeah, the premenstrual, the gloves off, you know, might have been niggling away, but suddenly it's, you're fully confronted by the thing that is absolutely not okay anymore in, in your life.

Yeah. Yeah. That's why the pre menstruum is not loved, because people disrupt things. They interrupt the status quo, they become difficult, and it's very inconvenient for all involved. I mean, that was not good for this, this the, the business owner.

Sophie: Yeah, [00:55:00] the skipper wasn't happy. Suddenly he lost his first mate, but maybe it made him think about the way he runs and

Sjanie: boats so, so much for control, mate.

Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. Because these boundaries, they can change things as we spoke about earlier, not just for ourselves personally, but for the people around us and the world at large. And this beautiful message came in from Olga in the red school community, and she said, how are we, those of us who hesitate to uphold clear and consistent boundaries, unintentionally sustaining the very same systems of dominance that we long to dismantle.

Can we dare to believe even against all odds, that by standing firmly in our truth and honoring our limits, we are helping the world recalibrate that slowly, gently, the collective will begin to return to its natural rhythm and sacred order. What if [00:56:00] saying no is one of the biggest parts of our purpose?

Now, the real question is, can I be brave enough to follow through?

Alexandra: That is really profound. I mean, those questions are, I feel silenced or not silenced. No. A bad way, just quietened sober. That's just, I feel the power in it. Yeah, and the thing is,

and I can give you no evidence for this, you know, I can't pull out evidence. I, I firmly believe that we can, through our nose, our boundaries restore

return to a more human loving, [00:57:00] respectful, rhythmic way of living that honors life, all life, honestly, order of nature. I feel it profoundly in my bones, which is why I do this work. It's what's, what it's, that's at the heart of what drives me is I believe profoundly in the power of this work to change our relationship with life.

And I've always seen it as like cathedral building. Uh, you know, cathedrals took generations to build, so you'd be a stone mason working on some tiny part of it. I mean, if we look at our magnificent cathedrals today, I'd be really, how the fuck, how the fuck did that happen?[00:58:00]

And, you know, you're a stone mason, or, or, or, or, or, yes, you carver in some way or, or a carpenter or something and you're just working on just some small little part of it. And, um, yes, you never get to see the hole, but yeah, the cathedral somehow gets built. So it's a deep feeling I have. So my answer is yes.

Sjanie: My answer is no.

And that's my final answer

Sophie: says the woman very deeply immersed in the quickening right now.

Alexandra: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a woman right on the door of menopause. She might be giving two fingers up to the world right now.

Sophie: Well all power to everyone listening. May you be yeah. Strengthened [00:59:00] in your whatever knows you need to bring forth in your life today and moving forwards. Okay. And it's been a great conversation. Thanks so much, you two.

Speaker 6: Mm, thank you. It's been great.

Sophie: Thanks for being with us today. I hope this conversation was inspiring and supportive for you.

If you know someone who needs help to. Claim their boundaries in their life, then please forward this conversation to them. And if you are, are loving the podcast and you'd like to support it, one of the best ways you can do that is to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review, which I believe you can do on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify.

We appreciate it so much. It really helps to make more people aware of the podcast. So that's it for this week. We'll be with you again in a couple of weeks time, and until then, keep living life according to your own brilliant [01:00:00] rhythm.

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